No idea what it will be, hard to imagine it will be nil.. Been previously debated and the consensus view is that those affected suck it up, caveat emptor etc so this is not the point of listing the names. I was curious to see if I was the worst affected, and apart from having no ruck left I'm not, Dean would probably take that medal.. I am just sharing the list and I guess a spot where the topic can be discussed purely in terms of it's impact on the ORFFA without all the argumentative bullshit that surrounds the wider issue. In addition to the current team list the ones I know about are; Ryder - Marble Bar Crameri - Larrikin Lagoon Monfries - Larrikin Lagoon Let me know if I've missed any and I'll add them. I am also glad to see that the Free Agent coach is a way worse list manager than I
I think there are only 20 current AFL players affected. But we don't know who they are. I think there are currently 28 players in the AFL who were on Essendon's list in 2012. 5 of which are current free agents in the ORFFA. So, there must be between 15 and 23 ORFFA players facing the allegations.
Was it actually decided that those teams affected by this (potentially anyway) have to just suck it up? Maybe I have short term memory loss (hell, I might've even voted for 'suck it up').....but just curious. Potentially getting soft & thinks that's kind of unfair.
I'd rather take a proactive approach. I propose that anyone with a player from Bombers 2012 list can select 'top up' player(s) at the end of the PSD. They cannot be used during the first half of season unless their Bomber(s) is/are suspended. If their is no suspension by the mid-season de-list date, they are released to the pool again.
Prap wrote: I'd rather take a proactive approach. I propose that anyone with a player from Bombers 2012 list can select 'top up' player(s) at the end of the PSD. They cannot be used during the first half of season unless their Bomber(s) is/are suspended. If their is no suspension by the mid-season de-list date, they are released to the pool again. While I can see the merit in your argument Prap, there is another side to being proactive. The Cows traded Crameri to grav's Larrikins in the post season bazaar. It is arguable that the value of the consideration reflected both grav and I being aware of his possible suspension, with me being risk averse and grav being risk accepting. Hence, The incorrigibles may be penalised for being proactive while your otherwise eminently fair proposal seeks to protect those who were not proactive by trading. I do not have a lawyer wife to lead me to the higher courts - I am simply trying to protect my team's position.
I just never picked any, nor will I pick any Bombers EVER because the club is scum and I could never put myself in the position of having to barrack for one of them. Glad that this has worked out for me.
Len, I am not sure if the Devils are the worst effected or not but am confident that they would be on the podium, due to this I thought I might as well let you all know my thoughts on the Essendon affect throughout the process as well as currently. Of the five Essendon players on Cradle Mountain's list only three of them might be impacted by any potential ASADA bans, the two that wont be are James Gwilt who has joined the Bombers from the Saints and David Zaharakis who has played his entire AFL career at Essendon, but thankfully Zaka doesn't like needles so wasn't part of the Essendon supplements saga. Unfortunately for me the three Bombers at CMD who might be banned are integral to the Devils line-up being Dyson Heppell, Michael Hurley and Dustin Fletcher. Heppell was ranked third at Cradle Mountain in 2014 for point per game with 106, only one behind second ranked Stevie J. Of my 2015 defenders Hurley and Fletcher were ranked first and second for points scored per game in 2014, this reinforces the valuable contribution that Fletcher continues to make but is probably also an indictment on his younger team-mates. When the news first emerged a couple of years ago that Essendon players might face bans I decided to take a long-term view and whilst I was not prepared to trade any more Bombers in to CMD that could face suspension and increase my risk I was prepared to retain players that were automatic inclusions in my best 15. In the 2013/14 off-season I delisted a Bomber, Heath Hocking who had been a fringe player in his two years at the Devils. If Zaharakis wasn't needle averse and could have been subject to a ban it is likely that I would have tried to trade one of the Bombers on the CMD list to reduce my risk. I am pretty sure that when the Essendon effect was discussed in this forum last year the consensus was that no relief would be offered to ORFFA clubs if they had Essendon players that received bans due to the supplement saga as ORFFA clubs had plenty of time to prepare for any such bans, another reason was the expanded lists that the ORFFA had from 26 to 28, allowing clubs in the ORFFA to be better placed to mitigate any suspensions than the ORRFL with 26 playerer-lists. One matter that complicates things is the timing of the (potential) conclusion to the Bombers case. If we all know the results of the hearing and of any bans Essendon players faced with 72 hours remaining in the ORFFA 2015 pre-season trade period ORFFA clubs would have time to take action to reduce the risk of scoring some donuts or using players out of position to cover banned Essendon players and change their trading and/or drafting strategy, however this is unlikely to be the case. The ORFFA trade period ends on Sunday March 15, we already know that players that were on Essendon's list for the 2012 season wont be paying in the Bombers first two NAB challenge games and that the club has signed top-up players for these games. The second of Essendon's games is on Friday March 13, two days before the ORFFA trade period ends. At the moment I would say best case scenario is that it is all resolved in the week beginning Monday March 16 which is after the trade period has ended. <p style='margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt;]Prap proposed that anyone with a player from Bombers 2012 list can select 'top up' player(s) at the end of the PSD. <p style='margin-bottom: 7.5pt;]They cannot be used during the first half of season unless their Bomber(s) is/are suspended. <p style='margin-bottom: 7.5pt;]If their is no suspension by the mid-season de-list date, they are released to the pool again.&rdquo; This proposal received support from Simonoz but also received the following comment from Graeme: <p style='margin-bottom: 7.5pt;]While I can see the merit in your argument Prap, there is another side to being proactive. The Cows traded Crameri to grav's Larrikins in the post season bazaar. It is arguable that the value of the consideration reflected both grav and I being aware of his possible suspension, with me being risk averse and grav being risk accepting. Hence, The incorrigibles may be penalised for being proactive while your otherwise eminently fair proposal seeks to protect those who were not proactive by trading. <p style='margin-bottom: 7.5pt;] <p style='margin-bottom: 7.5pt;]I do not have a lawyer wife to lead me to the higher courts - I am simply trying to protect my team's position.&rdquo; I acknowledge that the value of the consideration received by the Cows for Crameri might have been reduced due to the potential of Crameri receiving a ban in the future, however it is also much easier to be proactive and trade a player in Crameri who was not an automatic inclusion in the Cows best 15 than it is for an ORFFA club to trade one of their star players such as Ryder at Marble Bar or Heppell at Cradle Mountain. In relation to top-up players in the ORFFA,if the league goes down this path I don't think Cradle Mountain should get three top-up players as I have accepted an element of risk in retaining three players from Essendon that could receive a ban, however I am unsure if receiving no top-up players and leaving things as they are at the moment is entirely fair either if the verdict in relation to bans is not released until after trade period has ended. I plan on keeping Heppell, Hurley and Fletcher on the Cradle Mountain list if they receive a ban, however if I was to find this out before the trade and delistment period ended it would have an impact on how I managed the remaining CMD players as I would need some additional experienced players to cover the loss of Heppell, Hurley and Fletcher. The ORFFA pre-season draft is already starting as late as possible on 21 March, however an option might be to extend the trade period by a few days until 18 March in the hope that the Essendon players learn their fate on the 16th or 17thof March and ORFFA clubs with Essendon players can at least take some action to minimise the damage caused if any of their Essendon players receive bans. <div id='radePasteHelper' style='position: absolute; left: -10000px; border: 0px solid red; top: 0px; width: 1px; height: 1px; overflow: hidden;] <table width='100%' cellspacing='0' cellpadding='0' align='center' border='0' style='margin: 0px 0px 10px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 14px; vertical-align: baseline; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, San-Serif; line-height: 16px; background: #fcfcfc;] <tbody style='margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background: transparent;] <tr style='margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; 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border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: middle; margin: 0px !important; width: 80%; background: #ffffff;] <table id='tblPostBody72651' width='100%' cellspacing='0' cellpadding='0' align='left' border='0' style='margin: 0px 0px 10px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background: transparent;] <tbody style='margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background: transparent;] <tr style='margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background: transparent;] <td align='left' valign='top' style='padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: middle; margin: 0px !important; width: 100%; background: transparent;] <div id='spBody' class='Forum_Normal' style='font-family: Helvetica, Arial, San-Serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-stretch: normal; line-height: 16px; outline: 0px; color: #000000; background: transparent;] <p style='margin-bottom: 10px; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, San-Serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 16px; outline: 0px; background: transparent;]I'd rather take a proactive approach. <p style='margin-bottom: 10px; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, San-Serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 16px; outline: 0px; background: transparent;]I propose that anyone with a player from Bombers 2012 list can select 'top up' player(s) at the end of the PSD. <p style='margin-bottom: 10px; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, San-Serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 16px; outline: 0px; background: transparent;]They cannot be used during the first half of season unless their Bomber(s) is/are suspended. <p style='margin-bottom: 10px; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, San-Serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 16px; outline: 0px; background: transparent;]If their is no suspension by the mid-season de-list date, they are released to the pool again.
@dma, what sort of action to you suspect you may be able to take in the final couple of days of the trade period. Maybe trade some younger players for players who have better job security?
Thank you for setting out your thoughts in such a reasoned and clear manner Dean. There is nothing there that I can argue with. Yes, trading Cram was easier than it would have been to trade a guy like Heppell. In fact I could not bring myself to trade out Hibbo - a foundation playing member of the Club and one of our most valuable.. As I noted I was simply stating the Cows position. I would support the top up plan Prap floated; perhaps with the proviso that a top up player must be from the same line. That is, I would need to top up a defender to cover for Hibberd. BTW, with ASADA already saying that may appeal if they 'lose' and Hird dropping his High Court appeal I think we are getting very close to the next major announcement. Let's hope so.
Graeme, I am glad you defended your team's position which we are all entitled to do. It is also contributed to me giving a bit more thought to the Essendon supplements saga and the potential impact on the ORFFA. Anthony, I have got nine players eligible to play as defenders for CMD in 2015, if none of the Bombers receive bans an option would be to stick with these nine players, however if the three Bombers on the Cradle Mountain list are suspended my nine players eligible to play in defense in Round 1 and how they might fit into the Devils side are: [span style='color: #333333;]DEF Nick Vlastuin, Lee Spurr, James Gwilt, Nick Smith (Zak[span style='color: #333333;] Jones) FWD Tyson Goldsack (D/F) Suspended: Michael Hurley, Dustin Fletcher Injured: Sam Gilbert I am confident barring injury that Vlastuin, Spurr, Gwilt, Smith and Goldsack will all play in Round 1. Having played only four AFL games Zak Jones will find it difficult to force his way into the Round 1 Sydney side. One or two more injuries to defenders could result in an out of position player being played in defense or a donut for CMD. If I knew Bombers players had been banned corrective action I and other ORFFA coaches could take includes: Trade &middot; Anthony, as you mentioned a younger player could be traded for a more experienced player. &middot; Trade a draft pick for an experienced player. &middot; A coach with multiple Bombers banned might decide they can't continue to have a &lsquo;project player' or a player with a long-term injury and might look to trade a player from one or both of these categories for a player with better job security in the short-term. &middot; A coach might decide to trade one of their banned Bombers, this is a path I wont be going down. &middot; Trade a player from a position they have better coverage in for a player that plays on a line they have a weakness in due to the Bomber bans. Delist <p style='margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 72pt;]&middot; Delist a player unlikely to play in the short term such as young player/project player/LTI player to open up a spot and recruit a more experienced player at the PSD. <p style='margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 72pt;] <p style='margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 72pt;] Draft <p style='margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 72pt;]&middot; Alter the mix between players recruited from the National Draft and Free Agents, becoming more likely to recruit FA's. <p style='margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 72pt;]&middot; Change the positional mix of their squad to better cover the Bomber bans, for instance I could recruit additional defensive player(s) to cover for Hurley and Fletcher. If the Bomber players do receive bans I am not sure what if any of the above options would be available yet, as it all gets down to the timing of these bans being announced and how far through the PSD trade/delist/draft process the ORFFA is at that point in time.
graeme wrote: Prap wrote: I'd rather take a proactive approach. I propose that anyone with a player from Bombers 2012 list can select 'top up' player(s) at the end of the PSD. They cannot be used during the first half of season unless their Bomber(s) is/are suspended. If their is no suspension by the mid-season de-list date, they are released to the pool again. While I can see the merit in your argument Prap, there is another side to being proactive. The Cows traded Crameri to grav's Larrikins in the post season bazaar. It is arguable that the value of the consideration reflected both grav and I being aware of his possible suspension, with me being risk averse and grav being risk accepting. Hence, The incorrigibles may be penalised for being proactive while your otherwise eminently fair proposal seeks to protect those who were not proactive by trading. I do not have a lawyer wife to lead me to the higher courts - I am simply trying to protect my team's position. Understood Chels. I think if the player pool was deeper than it would be a big issue. But with the temporary players being picked in the 100's, I don't think it will be too big of an advantage, as they will simply allow a team on the park if others are injured.
Can I be the devils advocate? If you've got an Essendon player who might be hit with a ban (or an ex-Dons player under a cloud) you can always make the choice to delist them or trade them away. That might sound harsh and/or drastic, but no coach is compelled to keep any Essendon player they believe might be under a cloud or in line for a suspension. Same as they are under no compulsion to keep or trade any player. The variables obviously are: A - whether they are suspended or not and B - if they are suspended, how long? I guess though that coaches can make their judgement call on these factors as well. For example, for a gent like Heppell - his coach can make the judgement call on whether they is willing to retain him for 6 months, a year, 2 years if a suspension comes down, or if they would be more comfy trading them away. I guess I view this as not only list management, but risk management too. If coaches are willing to take the risk and roll the dice on any player (be they injured, out of favour, having played only a few games or none at all, etc) then they carry that risk. Similarly if they are willing to retain a player despite risks to their immediate playing future, so be it, but that's their choice. So while I wouldn't necessarily be completely opposed to 'cover picks at the end of the PSD', I also reckon that it is a case of 'carrying the risk and either reaping the benefit or wearing the consequences'. Or, to those thinking of trading for Essendon players, 'caveat emptor'. I should also add here that I think I'm in the clear given my 2 Essendon players were not at the club when this rubbish supposedly went down. But I have avoided trading for Essendon players (apart from a small nibble at Crameri a little while back) because of both the possible bans and a little bit of ChiefRussell's attitude as well. But just throwing it out there ....
graeme wrote: Prap wrote: I'd rather take a proactive approach. I propose that anyone with a player from Bombers 2012 list can select 'top up' player(s) at the end of the PSD. They cannot be used during the first half of season unless their Bomber(s) is/are suspended. If their is no suspension by the mid-season de-list date, they are released to the pool again. While I can see the merit in your argument Prap, there is another side to being proactive. The Cows traded Crameri to grav's Larrikins in the post season bazaar. It is arguable that the value of the consideration reflected both grav and I being aware of his possible suspension, with me being risk averse and grav being risk accepting. Hence, The incorrigibles may be penalised for being proactive while your otherwise eminently fair proposal seeks to protect those who were not proactive by trading. I do not have a lawyer wife to lead me to the higher courts - I am simply trying to protect my team's position. Yeah I bought my ticket, I knew what I was getting into. No doubt my fwd line will take a hit if bans roll out but accept that I will be copping it in the chin, as suck it up was the agreed position. For insurance, T Lynch is being fitted with an armour plated skull cap as we speak. Dpps could well be my life line in the early rounds.
Like the Chooks, the Warriors are sucking it up. Only a personal view, but there is a lot of money involved in AFL and I cannot see the people who run the business willing to lose any of it. I expect the AFL will negotiate a slap on the wrist with ASADA, a slap that causes minimal disruption to money making. I thus don't see it as an issue for ORFFA at this point in time. Should it become an issue at R1, perhaps we can address it then, but every team has to contend with player bans at some stage of the season. Stevie J. but one prominent example.
A lot of well expressed thoughts above, we have a good group.. Right now I am in the suck it up camp, I am expecting them to play this year at some point. 12 month bans should see me forced to trade for a ruck, but the prices paid for them are so high that I can't see how I can get a playing ruck without crippling another line. Despite my shot at CR re Smith he probably paid fair value for a guy who is likely to play most of the year even if Nichols takes points off him, but I don't have that currency to spend without hurting other lines quite badly. In the end I will probably play a 70 point player from another line and take 35 each week, this isn't a year I can challenge for the top 4 anyway. 2 year bans and I am heavily invested in valueless stock, but having access to a top up pool that doesn't contain playing rucks is unlikely to help much tbh, at that point some of my untouchable mids go on the market..
The wind seems now to be blowing in the direction of case-by-case penalties, rather than a blanket ban. Should this become the reality, it would make it very difficult for ORFFA to come up with any equitable system to compensate coaches holding the Bomb(ers).