Before this draft continues and this gets further out of hand I think we should have a few votes so things are clear moving forward
Recent posts moved into this more topic-relevant thread rather than the trades thread. They’re all here, warts and all, with the exception of the veto’s.
I'll try and keep this brief but that will be difficult in this situation. So on 1. As far as I was aware there is no rule in place that says we can't trade picks we are unable to use. As @ddsaints mentioned - I'm not spending hours trawling through old posts. Can we have a clear ruling on this ASAP. If there is no clear rule against this than neither I nor @TigersTooTough have broken any rules by making this trade. If there is no clarity on this we will have to vote and look to make a change at the end of the season - as far as I'm aware we all agreed to NOT CHANGE RULES DURING THE SEASON For clarity on how this trade came about - I thought of the idea after @YAD69 made the folllowing trades with @Batfink and @insider The Barracudas send MSD 21 to the Prairie Dogs for MSD Rnd 2 (2019) The Barracudas send MSD 36 to the Armadillos MSD Rnd 3 (2019) Both of these trades happened after the delistment deadline once @YAD69 realised he couldn't use those picks and found another way to get some value out of them - by trading them for future picks. I couldn't remember this sutuation coming up previously but assumed that it was a perfectly legal option after both of these trades went through, nothing was said and multiple thumbs up were given. Are myself and @ddsaints the only ones who notice something very wrong here!?
This last point touches on 3. Fairness across the competition. There is clearly different rules for different coaches and a clique of coaches having a heavy influence over this league.
So I've just read through all the comments from last night and today. While I understand the angst at Mick picking up a bargain, personally I can't see the problem with it. As he mentions above, it's pretty similar to YAD's trades of MSD picks he was no longer using. Everyone knew TTT hadn't delisted so wouldn't be using his picks, it seems Mick was just the fastest to recognise the situation and offer a trade that benefited both. Personally I have no problem with trades that benefit both parties. On the trading of 'dead' picks, I think we could easily put some rules in place to avoid this situation. It wasn't an issue before we started in-draft trading but clearly it is now.
If you want to call the trade unequal and Veto for that reason, then it harks back to the same discussion we've had many times before - this seems to rear its ugly head every other draft. 2. The use of the Veto rule - and whether it should exist in this competition Myself, @choppers and @ddsaints and other coaches have made our feelings clear on this one - that it should only be there and used to protect the league against extreme cases of collusion. This seems to be yet another case of "He got 4 chips and I only got 3!" So let's throw our toys out of the cot and use the dirty V word. As far as I'm concerned, this Veto option should no longer exist as it stands and we should vote on changes to or the removal of this option at the end of the season.
The trade in question is probably the best example possible of a win / win trade. I improve my draft position with an earlier pick and @TigersTooTough picks up a PSD pick effectively for nothing - by utilising a pick he could not use in the draft himself Thanks again @YAD69 for the idea and setting the precedent that trades of this type are fine.
Yeah sorry, am out in the paddock so a bit busy and not typing in a way that makes sense. Shouldn't have responded bow that I see eagle_eyed's response in other thread which is the point I'm trying to make. That poll was around "do I need to delist to make my picks live to trade them?" Which is what you said. If I wanted to trade in Zac Dawson for an 8th round pick (ridiculous overs I know haha) I'd have to delist 8 players just to make that pick live to be able to trade Dawson in. What we have now is essentially what the Afl has, trades, then delistments and no requirement to delist beforehand to make those traded picks live. This issue of trading msd 14 during the draft reminds me of the hidden picks issue the afl noticed after the first year of academy and father son bidding during the draft. Sydney had 3 list spots. Heeney got bid on at pick 3 and the swans used about 6 picks in the 30s and 40s to match the bid. Anyway, no veto from me. Mick and tigers are within the rules to make the trade as they are now. A little unders I think but not against any rule.
This is clearly a fair old can of worms... The result of all this has the potential to damage a quality league we've all put a fair bit of time and effort into
In terms of the veto rule, I think several of us have had anti-veto rants previously but to spell it all out again. EVERY player and EVERY pick in EVERY draft in EVERY year is DIFFERENT and valued DIFFERENTLY by EVERY coach. That makes it extremely difficult to compare trades and make a value judgement on them. It is all SUBJECTIVE. eg. Coach A might really like a certain player or think he's set for break out season and pay what others see as massive overs to Coach B for that player. Who's to say who gets the better deal? Do you choose to judge it right at that moment (which is what the ahem Veto rule effectively does) or do you wait 1 year, 2 year, 10 years! This is a keeper / dynasty league isn't it!? EVERY coach has made some trades that they now regret - but obviously they thought they were getting a good deal at the time. EVERY coach has made some trades that have worked out heavily in their favour. Who's to know what the future holds?... We are all just having educated guesses and every coach has the right to run his team anyway he sees fit. Trades are subjective and unable to be accurately judged. Vetoes are bullshit. Rant over
Coming late to this and most of my view has been covered by others, but when has ever stopped an opinion being posted on the internet? The trade is fine. The time at which the picks are locked in/lost/however you want to classify it is when the delists are finalised, not when the draft starts. So from a timing perspective there’s no difference between this and the other post 8pm Wednesday trades. On the evenness issue, I don’t think you can use the comparison of what a MSD R1 is usually worth. TTT couldn’t access pick 15, so it’s worthless to him. He’s turned something worthless into a PSD4 (close to worthless, but still of some value).
Since no one else will, I’ve read through this thread and found that the vote came up with the rule that each pick is ‘live’ and can be traded (edit: no matter if the list space is there or not). Technically, this years trades are all legal - I guess the vetoes can only be for unfairness
Pretty sure most of us would have read back through this thread big bud, we all know it’s legal....weather we like the ruling is another issue or if it’s fair/logical is the main issue. Hahaha your right Mick, I wasn’t overly happy with yad doing his sneaky trading out of picks not being used, but could not be bothered being the lone wolf winging about something......again When another coach commented on this issue, I thought I’d join in and add my views. Good on the coaches that go to the effort to make these moves, credit to you lads. We shouldn’t be punishing smart business moves should we? It’s called super coaching boys. Who’s the best at it.... Why are we slowing this draft. IMO mick gets his pick we move on as normal and change some shit up at the end of the season, well at least start the convo on it. No need to all melt down. We can all sook on the forums, fire each other up and get ready for a great finish to the season. A little spice is always exciting.
Spot on mate, in one way your right that it wasn’t an issue before we started in-draft trading, because back in 2014 we voted on a ruling to not make it an issue. But clearly back then it was divided, and we may have been better off seeking outsiders help....The big dogs on this site from other leagues could have helped us with some options and opinions if we had of asked nicely and may have helped us decide with a clearer understanding, the poll ended up 50/50 back then and tomster being the commish obviously felt the pressure to make a decision on the matter. I don’t know exactly how it played out with the final decision getting made but it was a big call for one man to make when it was so divided. We may have been better off getting some better advice so all coaches were happy with the decision. It’s the ultimate case of FAIRNESS in the league. So your right Tylo it’s never been an issue, but obviously it’s been an issue with me and most probably others.....
Debate is good. Opinions are great. How boring would life be if we were all the same? Facts are facts however. A trade was made, a veto was cast and, as per the currently active rules, the numbers necessary to nullify a trade were acquired. End of story. By all means discuss and debate and challenge rules separately and/or at the end of the season but there’s nothing uncertain here - rules are rules
Yeah true mate, fair point. Rules are rules. We have a veto rule it’s been used, weather I agree with the veto rule doesn’t matter at this stage. Sorry mick you’ve been vetoed. Should the veto rule exist is another conversation all together Hahahaha so does that mean we can all go hammer and tongs on TTT to try get his pick 14? I wonder what would be fair in the vetos coaches eyes...mmmmmm I better get cooking Wouldn’t it be funny if Yad or Insider got a so called fair deal done with TTT whilst we are all distracted over here...... Like I said credit to the coaches that full on SuperCoach it, I’m always jealous when I see your clever smart moves going on. Hahahha let the best man win boys
Exactly @ddsaints - it’s a different conversation about the validity of the trade or ethics or fairness. About vetoing of trades. About trading during drafts. About alleged grudges. They’re all supplemental issues and different conversations. Fact: trade was vetoed Fact: it’s now @tyze1 pick in the draft
Something to possibly talk about the future of dead picks and the best way to deal with them. My suggestion would be an automatic auction to get the fairest outcome.