Yeah. That's why I think Pacino is on the money. Either the Saints find some inches right now, either they heal as a team with some group bonding, or they will die as individuals. The game against Brisbane is massive and season defining. It might take a few "Sam Mitchell" tackles to win a game against the grain. And you know what, I still think Nick Riewoldt should be at CHB, as the on-field heart beat and general of the team. Even more so with the loss of Hayes. Make the forward setup less predictable, and with the smalls that are there, let's see them more dangerous. Adding an aboriginal small forward to the mix would be good. That's a key area they really haven't developed since losing Winmar mark 1. If the Saints only beat Brisbane and Melbourne in that run, the bye will not just stand for not playing a game, it will represent kiss the season good bye
Spot on with the Pacino speech Lucas. I think this bit is the key one that the players need to take notice. <blockquote>"We either heal, now, as a team, or we will die as individuals. That’s football guys. That's all it is. Now, what are you gonna do?"</blockquote> On Roo, i still think he needs to play on the wing and allow Kosi (i think i just died a little), The Knife play as our tall forwards with Milne, Winmar, Steven, Schneids as our small forwards.
Roo on the wing, not a bad option as well, just thinking he would struggle for pace. CHB he could go from the hunted to the hunter. The issue with his kicking could be a problem from defence, but I'm prepared to say that no one would beat him one on one in forward line. Saints could then use Gilbert, Gwilt and Fisher in much more attacking roles running off half back. Dawson, I'm not sure about. He's done OK as a switch hit forward better than any of the other, but I guess as a full back he's been seen as too important to move.
Yea lack of pace is an issue, where my other option would be Stanley on the wing and allow him to model his game on Roo. He's one our quickest at the club (not bad for a 200+ cm bloke) and could really use that up the ground. Problem with Dawson is we have noone else to play FB if he is moved elsewhere. Simpkin just isnt coming along like alot of people hoped. As much as it seems to be panic stations right now, i have a feeling that Ross is planning on having them peak at the right time of the season this time, unlike 09 and Geelong in 08. Even 07 Geelong started slowly.
I hope we lose to Brisbane. We could win all the games against the bottom eight, without fixing the problems with our game. The style needs to change and getting flogged is going to help this happen. If we cant change our game to replicate Collingwood and Essendon (just like they did to us) then i honestly suggest to trade Roo, Goddard and Hayes. Not for any draft or rebuilding reasons, just because it kills me to see three legends of the game not receive the silverware that they deserve. Vent over.
Goddard reminds me of Buckley so much. Amazing player due to circumstances misses the big prize even though he does super-human things to try to get them there. The bigger tragedy for everyone is if Carlton snags a flag or three, like what happened at Brisbane. Because we all know BJ should be at the team he supported as a kid, if not for Big Jack Elliott. Thankfully, Carlton appears no closer to winning a flag in 2011 than they were in 2010.
If you think about it the saints have been around the mark since 2004 in finals, their time looks just about cooked they may scrape in the bottom half of the eight this year and that will be it.
Might be an "Adelaide Crows 2010" where they go down to go up. The problem with these years is that they can stretch for a few! Still, talk to Geelong fans about 2006, most will say it was harrowing, but they don't mention the fact that their poor form that year netted them Joel Selwood, who was a key part of two premiership wins and three grand finals. Talk to Collingwood fans about 2005's embarrassment, where a team that should have played finals with the Burns-Buckley combination finished so close to the bottom of the ladder. But that year, plus some AFL generosity (and in my mind some questionable tanking v NM) netted Collingwood Pendlebury and Thomas. It's my view that when a side does really bad compared with how they should go, then brings in the great picks they get from that drop off, should in essence dominate the comp for a little while, provided they have done OK with other picks over time. St Kilda really have wasted picks with top ups, and it's only sustainable for so long. I'm thinking that they will have to do a more drastic refreshment than Sydney did. Still getting some emerging talent (if they can find the McGlynn/Kennedy type players) but generally trying to get other team's draft picks for established players. Probably the best example of this for Sydney was the selling of Jolly for a first round pick, then getting Mumford for pick 28, their second round pick. What this enabled was the refreshment of a ruckman - arguably bringing in a better one - and they got two first round picks and only lost a second rounder. That is how you refresh your list and go from 3pm on the premiership clock (the worst spot of all to be) to more like 9pm. So how does St Kilda achieve this? With difficulty I fear with the current list. They need to create value by showcasing talent. They need to get rid of currently existing talent (it's anathema but maybe one of Dal Santo or Montagna has to go), they need to be generous on the trade table. People trusted Paul Roos because he's a good bloke who does win-win deals. People hate Ross Lyon at the trade table because like Mark Williams he thinks people are always trying to stitch him up. Luke Ball would have been a perfect list refreshment tool. Could have got pick 30 plus an emerging young midfielder. That's two young mids, or defenders, or forwards - wherever you need the reinforcements. For mine, the most important two people at St Kilda are their list manager (Tony Elshaug), and Ross Lyon. Lyon because he needs to find a temporarily different game plan to build games and skills into younger players (before reverting to type when the bodies mature). Elshaug is an interesting one. I hate the bloke for ripping Collingwood off when we picked him up in the 80s. (The first Brad Plain trade) He then helped North coach Denis Pagan in the coaches box as one of the first full-time assistants. He stayed with Pagan at Carlton, before going to St Kilda. Unfortunately list management has been stuffed at each of the teams he has been involved in. Good luck Tony changing that run.
Lucas interesting that you mentioned that as ive posted something similar elsewhere about the value of our players and the fact for any kind of "rebuild" we would need to off load a A Grader for any kinda value picks as the rest of our list would net us something.. <blockquote>Unless we trade an "A" Grader then i think we'll struggle to get quality picks as most clubs wouldnt touch half our list. No disrespect to half the team but we have a lot of "role" players and this has been the key to our success over the years. They all play their part and the machine works perfectly. Just going through off top my head these guys would have no value in the open market. Maybe Farren Ray but wouldnt get back what we paid for him. Zac well someone might want him. Jason Blake Raph Clarke Steven Baker Kosi Sean Dempster Michael Gardiner Ryan Gamble Andrew McQualter Brett Peake Dean Polo Farren Ray Zac Dawson Paul Cahill Will Johnson Then you throw in recent draft picks/rookies who would be worth nothing as they've never been given a chance to show their stuff. Daniel Archer Nick Heyne Tom Lynch Arryn Sipposs Sam Crocker Tom Ledger Tom Simpkin Alistar Smith Then you have the guys that you could possibly get some kinda value from: David Armitage Rhys Stanley Jack Steven Jamie Cripps Nicolas Winmar Jarryn Geary B-Graders Stephen Milne Sam Gilbert James Gwilt Ben McEvoy Adam Schneider A-Graders Nick Riewoldt Nick Dal Santo Lenny Hayes Brendon Goddard Leigh Montagna</blockquote> Is StKilda's season so far and out look similar to Collingwoods of 2004? I remember after 2 GF's they fell away pretty quickly. I think that as seems to happening to us that people are underestimating how hard it is actually to get up the mountain after 2 (3 for us) heartbreaks in 2 years.. Not to mention our prelim final losses...
I think it would be an understament to say, the Saints need to win the next game. The Lions game is going to be huge. No less than a smashing on the Lions would be considered a pass mark for the Saints. I see the Saints finishing about 5th in the top 8 at this stage.
TAB Sportsbet have(well, will) refunded punters their money put on the Saints for the flag this year. Personally, as I enjoy a bit of futures punting when the odds drift, have chucked a bit on each of the following GF quinella combos (got lucky in 08 for a big payday, so here's hoping it works again hah) Pies/Saints (22:1) Hawks/Saints (71:1) Cats/Saints (97:1) Granted, the non-Pies quinella options are risky as it would mean someone was to knock them out in the prelim or earlier, but a few injuries here and there, or a team to hit form/play above itself on any given day and anything can happen. Do I think the options will definitely happen? Of course not. But at the same time, I think punters have pushed the Saints out far too long so it looks attractive. They were never going to beat the bombers, so that wasn't a turn up. They got unlucky against the cats in a match that was always going to be 50/50 so a 1 point loss was hardly devastating. The only disappointment results wise I have seen is they got 2 points against the Tigers, instead of 4. I remember saying at the start of the year that it wouldn't surprise me if the Saints went into the bye on 4 points(well, they're only 2 short of that, and were a combined margin of 3(draw+1point loss) points off being on 8 premiership points). No one is questioning the bulldogs, yet they too got pumped by the bombers, and have beaten the two percentage boosting sides. I dare say if the Saints had played GC and Brisbane in the first 3 rounds, they too would be sitting where the Doggies are.
Have the wheels fallen of for the Saints. Will they make the 8, methinks not. Mathew Loyd, only has them winnig one of their next 6 games. With that in mind is it worth hanging on to Goddard & co. Correction, next 5 games after lose to Crows.
We keep saying hang to Goddard, he will come good. What if he doesn't come good. He's not looking like coming good any day soon. What would be the best plan, hang on to him to the finals and then use him as a up grade or bite the bullet and trade him now?
I reckon as we've held him this long that have to ride it out. Afterall every other defender is doing just as badly. He is still in the top 6 defenders even with his bad form. Saints have a much much easier run home after their bye so probably expect a increase then. Thing is who would you trade him out for? Unless its Fisher or Shaw then i dont see that your going to gain a hell lot..